Tech Skills Shortage?
So well-meaning, so beside the point. Geoff Larcom wants students to realize that science can be fun and exciting, since we need “more math and science grads to compete with other nations that impose more rigorous requirements on their students.” Unfortunately, until opportunities for scientists improve, this is an example of what has sometimes been called the Great Education Myth.
Employers do argue that there is a shortage of workers with technical training, but their motives are somewhat questionable. Rochester professor Ron Hira addresses these claims specifically as they relate to IT jobs in Information Week, and concludes that although “many blame a lack of interest in the tech field among young people, or our failing K-12 education system” for declining numbers of students going into these areas, “the most likely explanation is that students, using an array of information at their disposal, including advice from relatives in the field, have decided that IT isn’t as attractive an option as it once was.” With a front-row seat for Pfizer’s closing and the impact it has had on the region, Michigan students who might have been interested in any science field can’t really be blamed for thinking that an MBA, followed by a quick escape from the state, sounds like a better deal.
Two years ago, I attended the student Q&A before a Detroit Economic Club presentation about the Cherry Commission which was the current genesis for the “educate more scientists” meme here in Michigan. When I asked the commission members, which included the president’s of UM and MSU, Lt. Gov. Cherry, and Dennis Archer, exactly what jobs were going to be produced by this initiative and would this before or after my elementary school-aged children were going to have to look out of state for a job, none would address my question. Shortly after this, Pfizer announced they were leaving Ann Arbor.
I am a non-traditional student who returned after serving in the military and having a few children and I truly loved my science courses. After looking at the career path that included several post-docs that did little to prepare one for becoming a PI if even such a position could be found and the sheer amount of exploitation going on, I decided to major in a quantitative social science instead. At least the exploitation will be much more manageable.
How about we actually increase funding for scientific research (and not just through NIH) so that we can have more positions available for career scientists and then we need to reform the training program. Only then, would science be seen as a more valuable career choice.
posted by Emme on February 25th, 2008 at 1:16 pm eThe article about the Great Education Myth wasa nice piece of contrarian thinking, but the data they relied upon seemed a little shallow. Is it really surprising that people with four year degrees are vulnerable to outsourcing?
The discussion needs to be put in a more specific context. Simply put, there is a global market for labor, and Michigan residents, like everyone else, need to realize that they are competing with a global labor force of 2,962,855,082 or so (World Development Indicators, 2006).
posted by Anonymous on February 26th, 2008 at 10:42 am ePS — meant to identify myself — 1042 am = Fred Zimmerman
posted by Fred Zimmerman on February 26th, 2008 at 10:43 am eSimply put, there is a global market for labor,
There is a global market for some labor. Manufacturing, yes. Science and tech, to a great degree. Doctors and lawyers, definitely not. (Another plug for Dean Baker on “selective protectionism”, even though he doesn’t always get it right about science and tech employment.)
Sirota doesn’t talk that much about people with graduate degrees in the Great Education Myth post I linked to, but a similar analysis would hold for them. At some point, there’s a limit to how much education you can ask people to get. And in the tech industry, there is evidence that employers do not even look at the resumes of older workers who learned some new skill in a class rather than using it on a job.
posted by ann arbor is overrated on February 26th, 2008 at 10:51 am eIt certainly is a great myth that the tech problem is about the schools versus the reality is that is about how cheaply a techie here in the US can get outsourced. People overseas aren’t smarter or even better educated, they are just cheaper to hire. They are also, much less invested in their work. Global market and worrrying about the competition often means the cheapest warm body someone can hire to do blah, with a pathetic race to the bottom. And there is consequence for doing things on the cheap.
posted by juliem on February 26th, 2008 at 11:39 am eI tend to think that Michigan’s problem isn’t a lack of good schools or smart college grads with science training, but that its poor business climate limits the number of jobs available. At some point, the “company town” mentality - where one expects a large employer to provide everyone a job and benefits for life - depresses entrepreneurial activity so much that it becomes unsustainable. And Pfizer’s closing in Ann Arbor has less to do with labor outsourcing than with the fact that the company isn’t doing well these days.
posted by Nick on February 26th, 2008 at 11:47 am eThen ‘fro-haired Dean Baker was a classmate of mine at Swarthmore
It may be irritating to hear the Great Education Myth propounded as a panacea, but do you really think that an MBA + an escape from the state is a passport to prosperity? Everywhere you go, you will be competing with three billion smart, hard-working people in a global marketplace whose rules are not all that fair. Accepting that premise and living by it is the first step towards actual security.
posted by Fred Zimmerman on February 26th, 2008 at 2:45 pm eThat’s so cool! What was he like as an undergrad? Dean Baker is one of my favorite bloggers and op-ed writers. Sometimes I even find myself sounding a little like him…I nearly wrote that “it would have been helpful for the News to mention” that grad students do research on that GEO post the other day.
I don’t think that an MBA is going to guarantee security for much longer either. I don’t really know what the solution is.
posted by ann arbor is overrated on February 26th, 2008 at 3:18 pm e“I don’t think that an MBA is going to guarantee security for much longer either. I don’t really know what the solution is.”
One possible solution: working really hard and excelling at what you do, so that you produce or provide something that others value. No one owes anyone a job, no matter their qualifications.
posted by Nick on February 26th, 2008 at 4:37 pm eMedicine is being outsourced, and the amount of outsourcing is growing really fast. Hospitals already send radiological images overseas, as much because of timing (they can be read overnight and ready for the next morning because of time zone differences) as much as labor costs.
posted by Anna on February 26th, 2008 at 6:24 pm eNick says,
“I don’t think that an MBA is going to guarantee security for much longer either. I don’t really know what the solution is.â€
Learn a trade or better yet, a couple. When you buy a house it will serve you well.
Nick also says,
“One possible solution: working really hard and excelling at what you do, so that you produce or provide something that others value. No one owes anyone a job, no matter their qualifications.”
Exactly
posted by mucho gusto on February 26th, 2008 at 9:25 pm eThat was my post about how an MBA doesn’t provide much security. Learning a trade probably is a much better option than a lot of what is promoted by the Great Education Myth supporters.
As for the idea that people who are struggling in the current economy believe that they are “owed” a job and that their problem is that they don’t “work really hard,” all I can say is that I’m used to personal insults directed at me. Having a blog like this, I can’t really complain about it. This, however, is an insult to a large proportion of American workers.
posted by ann arbor is overrated on February 26th, 2008 at 11:11 pm eNo, aaio, I think mucho gusto has that right. It is not a personal insult, it is reality. Of course, many people work hard, and are getting creamed in this
posted by juliem on February 27th, 2008 at 6:46 am eeconomic shift. It is not an insult to point out the a possible solution. Getting mad because someone points out reality is not going to help people how to figure out what to do next.
Nick, I believe that the original blog post was pointing out that whatever the solution, mindlessly saying, “we need more math and science grads” isn’t the solution. It’s pretty much a fool’s errand to say, “we train more math and science grads. Then a magic company suddenly appears in Michigan and gives them all jobs.”
Of course, many people work hard, and are getting creamed in this
economic shift. It is not an insult to point out the a possible solution.
juliem, actually, it is kind of an insult to tell someone, “the reason you don’t have a job is because you never worked hard enough,” particularly if it isn’t true. And it’s not so much insulting as patronizing to tell someone, “the economy works on supply and demand. You’re obviously having job troubles because the demand for your labor is too low. If you switched to what the market demanded, you’d do great!” It’s the sort of trivial observation that makes people think that economics (as explained by amateurs) is a pretty mindless enterprise. I really find it hard to believe that Michigan has more problems with the job market than Kansas because Michiganders are lazier and are less willing, as individuals, to take jobs that the market wants, but that’s what Nick seems to be saying.
Of course, generally, the best solution tends “find out where there is a job and move there.” For a lot of people, that place where there is a job is going to be “not Michigan.” Geoff Larcom could have just said that this was a good way to economic success, but that probably wouldn’t have gone over too well with his readership.
posted by Constantine on February 27th, 2008 at 8:52 am eI didn’t know Dean Baker very well, but he had a REALLY big Afro and was active in a lot of political activities, standing out as a radical even in a very left wing campus. (One of my most indelible memories of Swarthmore is the funereal atmosphere of gloom and disbelief the morning after Reagan was elected in 1980.)
posted by Fred Zimmerman on February 27th, 2008 at 11:09 am eIt is not a trivial observation, it is a fact. No, Michiganders are not lazier or less hardworking, but my observation is that they as a crowd, - and I do speak in generalizations about the people I have met in this state, not just Ann Arbor- who are the most taken aback about this economic change. I have relatives that were part of the original strikers of those UAW strikes back in the 1930’s. These are not lazy people, but they are so surprised. The jobs were plentiful, and over the years paid well. Now, not so much, less so every day. The autos made an enormous amount of money for the state, and that drove so much of this states economy, pardon the pun.
posted by juliem on February 27th, 2008 at 11:23 am eThe best solution, for some is to move. That is also following the law of supply and demand.
But there will be opportunity in all this. Nick is right, if perhaps a little over the top with the company town stuff. The hard reality is no one is owed a job, but you have to bring something to the negotiating table that someone else wants. Tech is still good money, but with globalization, it may be a riskier course than most may want to go.
It is far better to have a job/trade/skill knowledge base that can’t be delegated to an overseas company, because there is private equity money out there, looking for any opportunity to make that happen.
That’s their niche in this market, and those folks are working really hard every day to make that happen.
I don’t understand much in life, but I do know (from personal experience) that to achieve some level of what is generally known as “success” (unless you are born into it), a comfortable life and lifestyle (on your own terms), maybe a home, a car, a fulfilling relationship with a caring partner, maybe some children, community involvement etc., requires a convergence of several factors. In no particular order, they are; an opportunity, the ability to recognize that opportunity, the skills necessary to take advantage of that opportunity coupled with the hard work to see it through. The first part, the chance, the break, the knocking opportunity, I think is the most important but also the most elusive. Without the break (whether self made or on a platter), all the other skills, whether they’re an MBA, PHD, a pile of tools and a contractors license or whatever will not get you to where you think you want to go.
The reason I mention learned a trade or two is because a lot of (young) people, for a lot of reasons, overlook that path and tend to buy into the Great Education Myth (obvious hyperbole, because education is a key to knowledge). If everyone is spending their time, money and their youth an MBA, it might be better to go in a different direction. Buy some tools and a truck instead of going into debt with a student loan.
If the general consensus is that to get ahead you need an MBA, you’re going to be competing with a big bunch of MBA’s going after the same job. If you and all those other MBA’s, go somewhere where there is more opportunity (not MIchigan) the competition will be tougher because of the concentration of MBA’s. I don’t think it always makes sense to want what everyone else wants or go wherever everyone else is going. Think where you might be if you had taken an apprenticeship when you were 18, learned and worked your trade without going into debt with student loans? (I forgot, that was for the not so smart kids like me.)
I’ve known many people who have done very well with their skilled trades, more than few of them more successful than their better educated peers, and many of them in Michigan. Some of them went on to be successful business owners and others went back to school later in life to get that degree.
Consider shooting a little lower in your expectations in the short term. Learn to use your hands as well as your heads. Be a better carpenter, pipefitter or electrician than the tradesperson next to you. There will always be a demand for skilled workers. BA’s and MBA’s will be a dime a dozen someday, but who will know how to solder a pipe, wire a house, repair medical equipment, build fine furniture or rebuild a car engine?
posted by mucho gusto on February 27th, 2008 at 11:33 am eMy post wasn’t intended as an insult, and I think we’re all agreeing more than we realize. I was responding to the suggestion in aaio’s post that an MBA could “guarantee security” - it doesn’t, nor do I think it should. There’s just no substitute for working really hard and applying your mind to become expert at what you do. Getting a credential from an august institution like U-M can help you to get that great job that’s going to provide you with an acceptable level of security, just as moving to another city that offers more jobs in your line of work can help. But neither thing is a guarantee; working hard to produce something of value is the closest you’re going to get to that.
Wow, the world really is coming to an end. Mucho Gusto and I actually agree.
posted by Nick on February 27th, 2008 at 12:23 pm eHah — I was thinking the same thing about my views and Mucho Gusto’s. As the holder of a two advanced degrees (both mentioned above), I can say that the degrees are not what create the opportunity.
The only point of disagreement I have with Mucho Gusto is that I think that the opportunities are not at all rare — what is far more common is that people fail to be prepared when they arrive (e.g., me during the dot com boom) or they fail to seize the opportunity when it’s there (e.g., me not taking a short position on Time-Warner’s stock when I knew that the AOL merger would be a disaster).
posted by Anna on February 27th, 2008 at 2:21 pm eAnna, please correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t you on faculty at an East Coast university? You don’t need degrees for those kinds of positions?
posted by Errata on February 27th, 2008 at 3:51 pm eAs long as we accept that large numbers of workers will work for other people rather than run their own businesses, the whole idea that you just have to work hard, as propounded here, is sort of unfalsifiable. If you haven’t done thing X that might result in you being the kind of candidate that employers value, then X is the kind of work that you don’t want to do because you’re lazy and unwilling to seize opportunities. If you HAVE done thing X and it hasn’t helped you, then X is no longer work, but a qualification — a qualification that, no matter how good it is, does not “entitle” you to a job.
posted by ann arbor is overrated on February 27th, 2008 at 4:17 pm eErrata: Right, but that’s changing the subject slightly. Having the degrees doesn’t, strictly speaking, “earn” you a great academic post. You earn that by producing a lot of great work, mostly by yourself and at your own initiative, and by publishing it. The degree is just a rough indicator to others that you might be successful in a particular line of work; it’s not like your dues are paid the day you finish grad school.
AAIO: Hard work isn’t a guarantee either, but my point is that it’s the closest thing to it, being entirely within your own control. In my experience it’s always been enough to keep me happily employed. You can’t control your job market, obviously, but society doesn’t exist for the purpose of giving everyone the job they want.
posted by Nick on February 27th, 2008 at 6:01 pm eErrata: I actually am working in finance now. You’re right; the degrees help with some opportunities, but I would be a lot wealthier if I’d jumped on the ones mentioned above at the right time without the degrees (not that wealth is necessarily the only measure, but that’s a different discussion). Luck favors the prepared mind, and all that jazz.
posted by Anna on February 27th, 2008 at 8:29 pm e“Luck favors the prepared mind, and all that jazz.”
Louis Pasteur meets Bob Fosse?
posted by mucho gusto on February 27th, 2008 at 10:55 pm eWow, finance. Interesting.
Sorry if I was a little snippy the other day; as some of you may know, I’m on the job market myself, but the non-meritocratic nature of many hiring policies has been something I’ve been complaining about for years. When journals switch to blind submissions, the number of women accepted goes up, and I suspect something similar happens with other groups that the reviewers have preconceptions against (minorities, people they don’t personally know, people from the wrong institutions). I would like to see companies adopt a “blind resume” policy. Think it’ll ever happen?
posted by ann arbor is overrated on February 28th, 2008 at 9:51 am eMore than twenty years ago, a very smart and creative friend of mine told me that “in twenty years, we’ll all be on welfare.” His point was that employment was becoming ever more corporatized, and that hiring standards were systematically screening out anyone with any quirks, anyone who was 1% different from the accepted norm.
For a firm to hire someone (for a full-time professional job with health benefits) was to take on a huge responsibility; to mitigate risks and minimize surprises, they would select only people who matched a certain predetermined model. The rest of us — like him, like me, like most of our friends — were much too weird to meet any such standard. With every passing year that we hadn’t found career-oriented jobs, we were even more unacceptable. It was wildly unrealistic to expect that we’d ever have the kind of upper-middle-class jobs our parents took for granted.
In those days my friend made money by, among other things, scrubbing out student houses after dirty tenants had moved out. But today he’s more or less a self-made tech millionaire, and dozens of people work for him. I notice that his employees are just as quirky (in different ways) as he is.
posted by Larry Kestenbaum on February 28th, 2008 at 11:06 am eIs he hiring?
posted by a2oldie on February 28th, 2008 at 3:10 pm eI suspect so, but it would be more than an hour commute from Ann Arbor.
posted by Larry Kestenbaum on February 28th, 2008 at 3:42 pm eAAIO: assuming that you’re searching in the academic job market, I agree it’s an awful process. Until a few friends of mine went through it, I didn’t understand what one of them meant when he said academia was the western world’s last remaining medieval institution. A friend of mine (a physics PhD from CalTech) has been at it for months now, and his research is in a really hot area - he has concerns similar to yours (for different reasons), but I think he feels it’s just a terrible process in general and that merit is often a second-order consideration. Good luck.
posted by Nick on February 28th, 2008 at 5:07 pm eI am looking at academic jobs, but not only at academic jobs, and I think the academic job market is extremely meritocratic compared to the alternatives. Unfortunately, it is also insanely competitive.
posted by ann arbor is overrated on February 28th, 2008 at 5:53 pm eAAIO, The academic job market is insane. The “regular” job market is a cakewalk in comparison, especially if you are willing (cough) to leave Ann Arbor. Drop me a line if you want to talk about alternatives. Ph.D.s are marketable in areas you might not even be thinking of.
posted by Anna on February 28th, 2008 at 8:53 pm eShortly after Pfizer died, I met a UM chemistry professor and asked him how the department was doing. His reply was that they had more chemistry graduate students than ever before. Of course there are very few jobs for people with chemistry credentials at any level but they still mass produce graduates, mostly Asians. After they get green cards most of them open restaurants or convenience stores and start bringing in their relatives. The UM graduate program is more of an immigration scam than training for employment.
posted by herb on March 12th, 2008 at 8:07 am eIt’s hard to think of it as a “scam” when it requires earning a graduate science degree at a top institution. If nothing else, the U.S. ends up with some very smart and hardworking restauranteurs.
posted by Larry Kestenbaum on March 12th, 2008 at 9:24 am e