A2 is Underrated at Duke
A Duke Chronicle columnist defends his university’s setting:
Durham is not and will never be a college town like Chapel Hill. I’m not convinced that’s a bad thing.
Chapel Hill looks an awful lot like Ann Arbor, Mich., to me.
A Duke Chronicle columnist defends his university’s setting:
Durham is not and will never be a college town like Chapel Hill. I’m not convinced that’s a bad thing.
Chapel Hill looks an awful lot like Ann Arbor, Mich., to me.
ch AND aa ARE EARILY ALIKE.
And Ypsi and Durham are alike.
posted by Ypsidweller on October 22nd, 2007 at 8:05 pmHaving lived in both, I can tell you that Ann Arbor is no Chapel Hill.
posted by Anna on October 23rd, 2007 at 9:28 amMy ears can’t hear any similarity at all between “aa” and “ch”.
They are Eriely alike however, in the sense that they’re both the sort of noises one might make while drowning in a lake.
posted by Parking Structure Dude! on October 23rd, 2007 at 3:10 pmPraise God that AA is no Chapel Hill! Ypsi is no Carrboro either. Sure, there are similarities: AA and CH are both overrun by jaywalkers, slackers, and pretentious navel gazing academics and wannabes. Ypsi and Carrboro are the one-time blue-collar but now quietly much hipper neighbors. But Chapel Hill is just a university town, and is much smaller than AA. Much of what I like about AA I liked about Chapel Hill for the eight years I was there. But, Chapel Hill is a really, really small town. On the other hand, there is no decent pork bar-b-que here. Even Zingerman’s fails on that count.
Durham is decidedly not a college town. Duke students tend, I suspect, to be relatively removed from the community in which they live. They are not often “from around there” and seem to not to be interested in local politics, culture, or causes. The plus side about college towns is that however contentious the relationship between town and gown, there is a relationship. Duke and Durham have never been closer than during the awful spectacle of the lacrosse team rape incident. That is supposed to be a good thing?
posted by Young Westside on October 23rd, 2007 at 9:40 pmOh good lord.. Ypsilanti is definitely no Carrboro. The major difference between Chapel Hill and Ann Arbor, other than the fact that Chapel Hill is actually someplace one might want to live, is that there are actually interesting places to go outside of Chapel Hill. Detroit is definitely no Raleigh (nor Durham, for that matter).
posted by Anna on October 26th, 2007 at 11:16 pmRaleigh and Durham are interesting (daresay “cool”) cities, and each have appeal greater than Detroit places to shop, museum, eat, etc. The thing is that Ann Arbor actually offers some appeal which might lead one not to feel obligated to look elsewhere reflexively. Chapel Hill is a nice college town. But downtown is three blocks by one street. What would you do the second day or evening? Go to Durham or Raleigh. Ann Arbor is a nice college town with a broader scope of economy, social life, and even culture. It is flawed, to be sure, but it beats Chapel Hill by a bunch.
I wonder, Anna, if you and I crossed paths in Chapel Hill? I was there from ‘94 - ‘02, and I don’t much miss it other than some of the food.
posted by Young Westside on October 27th, 2007 at 4:40 pmExactly, ypsidweller. I moved to A2 from durham last year and all I couldn’t believe how like CH the town was. Then I started hanging out in ypsi and felt much more at home–folks were nice to me on the street, not everyone was upper-middle class, and there was just a little more grit and potential there. Similarly, all kinds of people can afford to live in Durham, it’s a great place to start a band AND raise a kid, it’s not just a college town, and it somehow just feels so more alive.
And not to brag, but it’s 55 degrees in durham today.
posted by durham dweller on December 16th, 2007 at 11:06 amDD: Right, and all that warm weather breeds huge ravenous bugs and parasites. Plus, there’s the vicious right-wing politics that made Jesse Helms NC’s senator for decades; he died undefeated.
Michigan may have its drawbacks, but I’d rather live here than down South.
posted by Larry Kestenbaum on December 17th, 2007 at 10:28 amI’d rather live down south. People are friendlier, food is better, weather is more comfortable. (In Ann Arbor, people tend to be polite, but NOT friendly. While the food is better than most places in MI, it’s not good enough to be charging what it charges. And the weather.. well, I don’t have to get into that today.)
Ypsi’s great, but I’d still rather be in the south.
posted by abc on December 17th, 2007 at 5:00 pmLarry K., have you ever been to the south, specifically durham? I do not know these huge ravenous bugs + parasites of which you speak. We get hard freezes with the best of ‘em.
And durham’s mayor is an african american democrat, not jesse helms’ ghost. Ironically, I only met a total of about eight black folks in my eight months in ann arbor, and two of them told me (seperately) that they were moving to…durham!
I don’t want to *totally* rag on ann arbor, because there are good people everywhere and I have made dear friends for life in my short time in your fair city, but my favorite game to play while walking downtown was “say hi to a stranger.” I was lucky if I got eye contact back, much less a smile, and forget about “hi.” (And I never even broke out “hey”). I have never experienced feeling so invisible as I did on the streets of ann arbor. I have never had so many doors dropped in my face. I started feeling like a chump for holding doors open for other people.
The first time I went to ypsi I got lost. I asked for directions at a stoplight and when the fella who set me straight called me “shug,” it was the sweetest sound I’d heard in months. I just think that recognizing your fellow human beings is something that southerners have down.
Last but not least, we don’t charge $17 for a plate of grits. damn, I wish I’d taken a picture of that zingerman’s roadhouse menu, because I can barely belive it now.
posted by durham dweller on December 21st, 2007 at 2:17 amI’m a white, middle aged woman (tat is, not too threatening to anyone) from Virginia and people here act like I’m strange when I make eye contact and say “hi.”
African-American young men (and men I know to be from the South) are the only ones who hold doors around here. I make sure to look them in the eye and smile as I say thank you.
And yeah, the Big Z sells grits for a huge markup, but at least they sell them.
posted by Chris on December 21st, 2007 at 7:46 amI wasn’t comparing Ann Arbor and Zingerman’s to Durham — I was comparing Michigan to the South.
I’ve never been to North or South Carolina, but I’ve been to most of the South. I married a woman from Kentucky. My web site is more popular in the South than elsewhere, and I appreciate the abundant research help I’ve gotten from Southerners.
Still, I wouldn’t want to live there.
I know climate tastes differ, but as for myself, the suffocating heat of a place like Phoenix or Memphis is not for me. Even Philadelphia is intolerably hot and damp in the summer. Ice and snow are hugely preferable.
Most of my experience with Southern insect and rodent life comes mostly from Houston, Texas, where fastidious people wash dishes before using them. No matter how new and clean your apartment, you really don’t want to visit your kitchen in the middle of the night. There is a kind of tacit conspiracy among residents of such places, to not let cold-climate friends in on just how bad it is. Durham is probably better, but lots of other cities in the South are just about as bad.
And yes, I can tell you in detail about all the racism and all the political problems in Michigan (just see some of my past postings to AAIO), but at least we don’t have candidates winning elections based on ads like Jesse Helms’ “Hands”. That was the TV commercial that showed a man’s hands angrily tearing up a job application, with the voice over saying “You really needed that job. But it went to a minority.”
Not only did that ad not offend North Carolinians, but it turned the election around and gave him the win. Ugh!
posted by Larry Kestenbaum on December 21st, 2007 at 11:01 amLarry
Of course that sort of political advertisement would not play in Michigan. The racism is so deeply institutionalized it is not necessary. The African-American underclass is neatly warehoused in failed municipalities like Flint, Pontiac and Detroit where crushing poverty, a dearth of employment and collapsed education systems keep people impoverished until they wise up, pack up and head South. Michigan is the most segregated environment in which I’ve ever lived.
Plus, Michiganders put a referendum to ban affirmative-action on the ballot last year, did they not? The referendum did not offend Michiganders. They voted in favor of it. Ugh!
To the rest, it is indeed the little pleasantries that make life among the ruins so pleasurable. As I’ve often said, “In New Orleans people exchange pleasantries. In Ann Arbor they exchange slights.”
posted by Alan Gutierrez on December 21st, 2007 at 12:53 pmI have been to NC (and SC as well as most of the other southern states). I have also lived south of the Mason Dixon line but not in NC. As far as politics go, in the 90’s when Harvey Gant ran against Helms I contributed to his campaign (Gant’s that is); I had little money and didn’t live there, but I did it anyway. And the first thing I would ask anyone I met from NC would always be, how could they vote for that racist. How they answered told me a ton.
That said, the climate in the west of the Carolinas (in the mountains) is very pleasant in the summer; days are warm but the nights cool off. Not much different than here.
And knowing that grits are probably still a dollar or so down there I just can’t bring myself to order Z’s version, which I am sure is good.
posted by abc on December 21st, 2007 at 1:16 pmAbsolutely, Michigan is racist and metro Detroit is highly segregated. I make those points all the time. Still, we don’t have politicians winning elections on an openly racist platform, and I don’t think that’s because it’s “not necessary”.
As a student, I lived for three years in run-down neighborhoods in Detroit, walking and riding buses to get around, and never once saw a rat. On my first day in Houston, I saw a big rat scamper across an aisle in a Safeway (chain) supermarket in a middle-class neighborhood. I also noticed the lack of any reaction from passersby. The vermin situation is just qualitatively different there.
posted by Larry Kestenbaum on December 21st, 2007 at 1:33 pmFirst, Jesse Helms lives, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_Helms.
Second, “The vermin situation is just qualitatively different there.” may be the most hilarious thing ever said on this site.
posted by Vermin live; so does Jesse Helms on December 22nd, 2007 at 2:00 amForgot my sig.
David Boyle
posted by Vermin still live; so does Jes... on December 22nd, 2007 at 2:02 amI dunno Larry, my family lived in Chapel Hill for 11 yrs and we never had the vermin troubles you describe from Houston. Maybe things were better by virtue of being, well, HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS OF MILES from Houston.
Reasons to live in Chapel Hill rather than Ann Arbor:
posted by Nick on December 22nd, 2007 at 3:42 am1. Some people prefer 6 months of summer to 6 months of winter.
2. You can actually get a good job in the area after graduating from a good university.
3. Incredibly friendly, interesting people.
4. The restaurants and bars are better, and the live music scene is A LOT better.
5. The Outer Banks, Wilmington, New Bern, and the Blue Ridge are much better day trips than anything within 200 miles of A2.
6. In spite of its (slightly) more racist political history, you may actually see someone who isn’t rich and white in Chapel Hill once in a while, unlike A2.
7. Good barbecue kicks the ass of SE Michigan’s culinary abyss any day.
8. For the sports fans, the Duke-Carolina rivalry is much more compelling than OSU-Michigan.
9. For those who complain about humidity and giant insects in the South . . . yeah, thank God you never encounter either of those things in Michigan in the summer . . .
Okay, I should have checked my own data. Substitute “he retired undefeated” for “he died undefeated”.
Chapel Hill doesn’t have Houston’s heat and humidity, but many other Southern cities approach or exceed it. A subtropical climate nurtures abundant and diverse life — that’s just a fact of biology. A Michigan summer does not compare.
Getting back to the specific Ann Arbor/Chapel Hill comparison, the census numbers show the two cities to be strikingly similar in demographics. Ann Arbor is 74.7% white, Chapel Hill is 77.9% white. Ann Arbor’s homeownership rate is 45.3%; Chapel Hill’s is 42.9%. Ann Arbor has 16.6% in poverty; Chapel Hill has 21.6%. Ann Arbor has 20.1% speaking a language other than English at home; Chapel Hill as 14.4%.
The biggest difference may be that Ann Arbor has twice the population (114k versus 49k) and almost twice the density (4221 versus 2466 per square mile). The latter comparison may reflect differences in state laws: it’s much easier for cities to expand their territory in North Carolina than in Michigan.
posted by Larry Kestenbaum on December 22nd, 2007 at 4:30 amI maintain that it is not necessary to put forward race as an issue because of the lack of integration. Race is the undercurrent in South Eastern Louisiana politics because municipalities and districts are mixed race. I don’t see how race could be an issue in Washtenaw County politics, but in Orleans Parish politics it is a defining issue.
Race is not a statewide issue in Michigan, because of cities like Ann Arbor where are homogeneous.
posted by Alan Gutierrez on December 22nd, 2007 at 9:55 amI’ll just second the “nobody says hello” here vibe. I grew up in a small town in central Indiana. We smiled and said hello to people, and we held doors open for those behind us. It’s totally different here. Totally. Even most people walking on the OWS won’t make eye contact or say hello. Heck, I make eye contact and say hello even with my iPod on. It’s strange. At least we have block parties, though. That’s a nice, neighborly thing.
This summer we were visiting Baltimore and one thing that struck me was how much friendlier people were there. It was crazy.
posted by OWSider on December 22nd, 2007 at 1:28 pmGeesh, Larry, I really wouldn’t have expected you to describe with such authority a state you’ve never visited. Personally, I’ve never seen these rats and insects of which you speak, and there are plenty of liberals in the Triangle area (e.g., Edwards’ campaign headquarters is in Chapel Hill).
posted by Anna on December 22nd, 2007 at 5:57 pmI have spent a lot of time in the Carolinas, especially the Greenville/Spartanburg area in South Carolina. Summers are qualitatively different there - really hot and really humid for a much longer period of time than here. Yes, we do get heat and humidity here, but not like there.
While it is true that Michigan is very segregated, Michigan has never sent to the Senate the likes of Jesse Helms and Strom Thurmond, Spencer Abraham notwithstanding. And while it is true that are pockets of liberalism in the South, especially in university towns like Chapel Hill, it is still the Bible Belt.
posted by Tom Brandt on December 22nd, 2007 at 7:24 pm“Describe with such authority”? I was citing census data, which at least in theory is objective. And Jesse Helms’ campaigns are surely of general interest even for those who haven’t been there, since North Carolina inflicted him on the entire country.
So I suppose Houston is a unique island unto itself, with insect and rodent problems utterly untypical of its region. Got it.
I can’t help but be amused by Nick’s notion that “you may actually see someone who isn’t rich and white in Chapel Hill once in a while, unlike A2,” when the two cities have nearly identical demographics, indeed, Chapel Hill is three points whiter.
Michigan (not just Ann Arbor) is less friendly than most other areas, no question about that. See, e.g., my earlier rant about the Detroit Rule: “we don’t give change without a purchase, and if that’s not enough change, buy something else.”
posted by Larry Kestenbaum on December 22nd, 2007 at 7:41 pmI think you need to add in the abutting city of Durham to get a truer sense of the population.
I lived in Virginia until my twenties, go back annually, and have friends in Raleigh, Durham, and Chapel Hill. The racism is different, and it comes with a sense of something approaching noblese oblige that that is infuriating superior in many ways, but sure beats the overt hostility or complete ignoring of other races I detect in the middle class majority here.
It doesn’t matter how cheap grits are back home when I’m not there. If I’m eating breakfast out, I just want them and if I have to pony up, so be it.
posted by Chris on December 22nd, 2007 at 8:16 pmI’ve never supported Spencer Abraham for anything, but I went to high school with him, and I respect his intellect. I suppose I would know better if I were African-American, but I have never thought of Spence as racist, and I think it does him a disservice to put him in the same category (other than “Republican former senator”) with Jesse Helms.
posted by Larry Kestenbaum on December 22nd, 2007 at 8:25 pmI don’t have much to add to this discussion, but I will completely dispute Nick’s point number 8 about Duke-NC being a more compelling sports rivalry. Duke-NC may get a lot of publicity….the fans may be all jacked up about the games when they play, however when was the last time one of them eliminated the other from national championship contention. The difference in college football vs. college basketball makes M-OSU better. Mich-OSU play once and the loser of that game is done for the season essentially. Duke-NC play two or even three times a year, and that game hasn’t ended either team’s title hopes since some time in the 70’s when the NCAA expanded the tourney to allow multiple teams from the same conference.
posted by andy on December 23rd, 2007 at 1:44 amOh and I hold doors open and I’m not from the south…I suppose I don’t say hi to random people I don’t know very often, but then again I’ve seen some pretty rude behavior from southerners as well, even if they do say hi to people they don’t know.
posted by andy on December 23rd, 2007 at 1:48 am“the suffocating heat of a place like Phoenix”
Hah! I landed in PHX on Wednesday. Highs are under 60, lows in the 30’s. My in-laws don’t heat their house (hey, they don’t need to normally), so I’m actually dressed much warmer here than I would be in Ann Arbor.
(But, OK, I’ll confess, after today’s trip to Fry’s I can now post comfortably to aaio from their backyard. Which is also where we’ve been eating our lunches, which have included oranges and pomegranates from their trees. I think Arizona is winning?)
posted by Bruce Fields on December 23rd, 2007 at 7:51 pm$17 for a plate of grits is easy in Chapel Hill. The place is called Crook’s Corner, and it nearly straddles the line between Chapel Hill and Carrboro.
Larry is a bit out of bounds in comparing Chapel Hill to Ann Arbor on a purely statistical basis — the limits of Chapel Hill’s size have nothing to do with city limits — it is simply a much smaller town. While folks down there are absolutely friendlier, some of that is attributable to the size of the city, in addition to the cultural variations.
Chapel Hill is very, very charming. The Carolina - Dook (showing my colors) rivalry is much more interesting than Michigan - Ohio State. It shares Ann Arbor’s declared liberalism. (The aforementioned Jesse Helms once suggested building a wall around Chapel Hill to contain the liberals therein.)
Forbes recently ranked the best cities in which to raise/educate kids. Ann Arbor was #10 on the list. No cities anywhere in the South were listed. The methodolgy is suspect, but it resonates with why I decided to raise a family here, not there: charm is lovely, but culture is crucial.
posted by Young Westside on December 23rd, 2007 at 9:25 pmBeware tops 10 lists. Ann Arbor has been in them for decades. They are meaningless marketing tools for the CoC.
Chapel Hill? I subscribe to The Sun.
$17 for a plate of grits?
huh.
I paid about $2 for grits, biscuit and gravy ( Grandma’s, a souther’n fast food chain back in the day) when I eked out a living selling the Great Speckled Bird (underground newspaper) on the streets, in Buckhead and Underground Atlanta in 1970! I also swept out a movie theater and worked in a print shop chiseling stone tablets.
posted by mucho gusto on December 23rd, 2007 at 9:58 pmI spent most of the summer of 1975 in rural central Arizona, near Prescott. Sure, it’s “dry heat” there, but it still flattens a person. And when we drove down to Phoenix for something, you descend into that desert valley, and BANG, it’s suddenly humid as well as hot. All that air conditioning and irrigation has raised the humidity in Phoenix to something like 35%. Phoenix may be dryer than eastern cities, but it’s also considerably hotter.
posted by Larry Kestenbaum on December 23rd, 2007 at 11:06 pmYoung Westside: With the grits at crook’s corner example, you prove the chapel hill is to ann arbor as durham is to ypsi point exactly. The difference is that the shrimp + grits at crook’s are divine, chapel hill is actually friendlier, and the grits are not $17, either.
Also, when someone declares a town a “good place to raise kids,” isn’t part of the translation: “there’s nothing that will challenge you here?” or “everyone looks/acts just like you?” Thåt always scared the hell out of me when someone said that about ann arbor. (I know , I KNOW, I trotted out the “great place to raise a kids” line earlier in this thread, but before you call me a hypocrite remember that I paired it with “start a rock band,” which is still something you can afford to do in durham without being a trust-funder because housing prices are affordable).
You thought you chose culture over charm?
What th-?
There’s tremendous authentic culture in durham/raleigh/chapel hill, and with three major universities and about 10 small colleges, there are also way too many events that come to town to even begin to keep track of. The triangle has the highest number of PhD’s per capita in…the universe, I think.
posted by durham dweller on December 24th, 2007 at 12:13 amPlus, Magnolia Grill.
posted by Clem on December 24th, 2007 at 8:23 amNothing perks up a moribund blog like a vigorous round of “My cock is huger than your cock!”
Merry Christmas anyway, motherfuckers.
posted by Parking Strucutre Dude! on December 24th, 2007 at 12:48 pmDurham Dweller is right about the shrimp’n'grits at Crook’s being worth the $. The groceries are unequivically better in the Triangle than they are here. A buddy of mine visits Detroit on business every now and again, and I have him fly with frozen Bullock’s pulled pork….
I am nowhere near talented enough to play in a band anywhere other than in my imagination, (nor am I a trust-fundee), but I am pretty happy with what live music I find here. I miss a little of the edgy/gritty, but I had time to be in clubs at 1:00 a.m. then, and with kids now, I don’t.
The part of culture in Chapel Hill that I didn’t like is that racism in the South is not just about Jesse Helms and the Dook lacrosse team, but it is still a very deeply inculturated assumption. However liberal the town might be, it still suffers an undercurrent of an entitlement mentality which extends from who one’s daddy was and his social standing. Race and class intertwine directly in that very subtle force, and it is ugly (see the noise surrounding the aforementioned Dook lacrosse team). How you propose to free a next generation of that, I don’t know.
posted by Young Westside on December 25th, 2007 at 5:44 pm