It’s Not the Green Ribbons in Their Hair, I Don’t Want Them Hanging ‘Round
The new DDA plan incorporates a “greenway” through downtown, but not in a way that’s accceptable to greenway supporters; at one point, the trail would go past a five-story building. Not to mention some railroad tracks. You might as well have it going down the middle of the Long Island Expressway at rush hour. “[G]reen ribbon-wearers,” reports Arbor Update, could be seen at last night’s meeting about the proposal “loudly scoffing, laughing, and sighing.” Well, we all know how that worked out for Al Gore.
OK, the title of this post is a definite stretch.
posted by RDS on March 8th, 2005 at 2:32 pmWell, I already did “little Greenway, have a happy ending”…
posted by ann arbor is overrated on March 8th, 2005 at 2:38 pmJust because I live in a city, why should I have my view of nature obstructed?
(Duh.)
posted by Dave on March 8th, 2005 at 3:12 pmNot “Tie a green ribbon ’round the ol’ oak tree?”
Greenway = teh dumb. Can’t we get the greenbelt up and running before we do this?
posted by js on March 8th, 2005 at 3:14 pmAnd hey, y’know, those people what want a greenway are perfectly free to purchase the property on their own and maintain it as a nature area without any imput from the city.
The greenway sounds like a pretty lame idea to me, whether or not it passes a 5 story building. The greenway would look terrible - it would have to pass through a large number of busy streets (Hill, Main, Ashley, First) - what kind of greenway is that? It would pass through that horrible Fingerly lumber commplex. Ah, nice to stroll through the warehouse district! And to use the greenway to run? It is not like it would be fun to run and stop, run and stop, run and stop through all those busy streets. Using the train track path is just asinine to me - it could only have come from the crooked mind of an Ann Arbor native. So cry me a river, tree-town-hugging, greenway-loving hippies: I vote NO on greenway.
posted by Mandrake on March 8th, 2005 at 3:51 pmDoes anyone remembering greenbelt advocates promising to increase downtown density if the greenbelt passed? Or am I imagining things?
posted by ann arbor is overrated on March 8th, 2005 at 4:00 pmThe greenway will run alongside the railroad its entire distance, is the thing… or do they plan on somehow buying the entire (profitable, I think) railroad and ripping out the tracks? In any case, urban trails aren’t a bad idea (great way to get around Boulder) but you can have a greenway and still have the DDA’s parking consolidation plan and new density and retail on the other sites at the same time. The NIMBY/LocalSierraClubness of this whole stink is what really irks me. Since when does a DDA really involve the public when crafting proposals, anyway? It’s a quasi-governmental authority, for pete’s sake. Heck, there will even be a park on site. And as if there aren’t enough parks that West Side neighbors can walk to. Enough with the parks, already, at least when they are used as a crutch to throw a wrench in more important plans. Real environmentalists don’t cry for more chemlawns and horseshoe pits, they beg for density, and lots of it.
posted by Brandon on March 8th, 2005 at 4:09 pmEco-weenies who are full of shit? Who would have thought?
posted by Dave on March 8th, 2005 at 4:10 pmI can say with no reservations that the proponents of this plan are idiots. This is one of the first ideas any intelligent person throws out after a brainstorming session. I am saddened by the density of twits in this area.
/really had to get that off my chest.
posted by Ryan on March 8th, 2005 at 5:15 pmMandrake, you do realize they could have pedestrian underpassed ala Boulder under the streets, right? Though with the railroad there… I really don’t know how workable such a scheme would be. I can’t imagine the AA Railroad being too keen on a scheme that involves the city tunneling around next to their trackbed.
posted by Brandon on March 8th, 2005 at 5:44 pmI imagine anything is possible, but that sounds expensive! Digging tunnels under all those streets? Imagine that area right by Leopold’s where the train crosses Madison, Main, & Ashley all in the span of maybe 100 yards. That’s a lot of underpasses! Plus trolls might start living under the bridges and attack me on my walk home - I don’t want that.
posted by Mandrake on March 8th, 2005 at 6:00 pmI hate the mayor. He’s the biggest liar, hypocrite, eco-weenie, etc. of them all. Watch as the Greenbelt funds go to buying the RR instead of whatever the hell they should be going for.
Ann Arbor definitely isn’t overrated in the “chock full of obnoxious eco-weenies” category.
posted by Kblow on March 8th, 2005 at 6:02 pmI love this part in the article:
“Easthope questioned whether the trail would truly be green,”
It gives me visions of city workers painting asphalt green.
The version of this idea that I’ve heard about is a cross-town bike path, not some sort of long skinny park that’s just downtown. I kinda like the bike path idea, but it has huge, huge logistical problems - like having to build it either over, under or through Fingerle’s. Nice idea and all, but doesn’t seem realistic.
posted by Laura F. on March 8th, 2005 at 6:47 pm“It gives me visions of city workers painting asphalt green.”
Now I have “Follow the green asphalt road” stuck in my head.
posted by Jen on March 8th, 2005 at 7:12 pmHelp! I forgot my Wolverinesingles.com access code!
posted by Morbidly Midwestern on March 8th, 2005 at 7:31 pm“Well, we all know how that worked out for Al Gore.”
By the way, I’m busy at work on my book tentatively titled, “Ann Arbor in the Balance.”
posted by Dave on March 8th, 2005 at 9:41 pmIf they decide to buy out the A2RR and pull some rails-to-trails shit, I’m chaining myself to the tracks. That would be hands-down the most short-sighted thing that the city could possibly do at this point. We need that ROW for interurban rail service on the Toledo / A2 / Lansing route, and commuter rail service on segments of that.
(I think this little transportation planner needs to go take a cold shower now. . .)
posted by Murph on March 8th, 2005 at 9:49 pmAnd, Brandon, I doubt there’s much that can be done with underpasses along that route. It’s basically all in the Allen Creek floodway, which means that, first, your underpasses would risk hitting the water table, and, second, your underpasses would be likely to flood during heavy rains or spring thaw.
posted by Murph on March 8th, 2005 at 9:54 pmBut think how noisy an interurban would be! It might even be worse than a five story building. Just would ruin the OWS. Might as well get rid of the tracks so you don’t have to worry about it later.
posted by Kblow on March 8th, 2005 at 10:12 pmNo, Murph -
Unless you have other good reasons for taking a cold shower, I wouldn’t. I’m 98% certain the plan that the DDA proposed has no rail-to-trail conversion plans at this point. I don’t know about the Friends of the Ann Arbor Greenway plan, or others that are floating around, though. The 1st and Williams site sure would be a great place for the train to stop if it ever exists, given some parking and retail stores nearby. (Bypassing the whole political will to make the route happen, etc. Details, details…)
posted by Lisa on March 8th, 2005 at 10:32 pmIt’s funny to read people bashing the greenway/park concept since the DDA plan also includes the same concepts. So if the idea is “dumb” and “lame” and the proponents are “idiots”, apparently the same labels will fit nicely on the DDA board members as well.
posted by Anonymous on March 8th, 2005 at 11:57 pmAnonymous, you aren’t real familiar with the tone of the site, are you? “dumb, lame idiot” is generally a term of respect around here, as perhaps the nicest thing anybody ever calls anybody else.
On the other hand, the Friends of the Greenway are clearly trying to cast the DDA’s plan as not counting as a real park/greenway. If one accepts the Friends’ formulation of the plan, then it seems greenway critics can freely bash the Friends without bashing the DDA. On the third, mutant hand, maybe everybody (including the Friends) needs to look at what the DDA’s proposal really says before attacking each other over it?
posted by Murph on March 9th, 2005 at 9:09 amI LIKE the DDA plan. It makes improvements and it makes sense. Why don’t the people that want a park running thru downtown move to the edges of ann arbor so they can enjoy their greenbelt.
Ah, I’ve got it, it’s the green-belt-with-suspenders plan!!!
posted by Ryan on March 9th, 2005 at 10:49 amRyan - you should be castrated for making that joke.
posted by DM on March 9th, 2005 at 10:56 amit’s ok, I hate me for that comment too.
1. It wasn’t meant as a “if you don’t like ann arbor/america/club sammiches you can leave” comment. I meant that cities contain, well, buildings, streets, and small parks. If you want to have a bike trail or park everywhere, move to a less urban environment, and stop trying to make one thing another. Ann Arbor already has great parks, where they belong. It needs parking - who was that lady that said the lots are ALWAYS empty? Can she not read the signs on the lots that say full most days? It needs some way for development downtown to happen.
2. I’m not claiming green-belt-with-suspenders is my own original. It may be but more likely it stuck in my head from somewhere else.
posted by Ryan on March 9th, 2005 at 11:03 am“Real environmentalists don’t cry for more chemlawns and horseshoe pits, they beg for density, and lots of it.”
These people aren’t environmentalists. They are greenwashers. For those unfamiliar with the term, it usually applies to corporations, and it refers to the slight of hand where a company touts it’s environmental practices in one area so that you don’t notice that they are screwing things up in another area…and profiting as a result of the practice.
The only difference between the personal and corporate greenwashing is that the corporation makes money by selling something, and the people here are asking the taxpayers in the rest of city to pay for improvements to their property. These improvements can come in the form of nearby parks, but they can also be had by pressuring the city to keep things the way that they are, tipping the scale of supply and demand in their favor, thereby increasing the value of their property.
This has nothing to do with environmentalism.
What really disappoints me, from reading the reports of this meeting, is that yet another business person has told the city that the local businesses are disappearing at an alarming rate due to the practices of the city and the downtown NIMBY’s…and yet I’m sure this canary in the coalmine will be ignored yet again.
posted by Anonymous on March 9th, 2005 at 11:13 amOops, I forgot to sign the above post.
posted by todd on March 9th, 2005 at 11:14 am“If you want to have a bike trail or park everywhere, move to a less urban environment…”
Like NYC with its Central Park. Urban density must be balanced with open space to be livable.
“who was that lady that said the lots are ALWAYS empty? Can she not read the signs on the lots that say full most days?”
posted by Anonymous on March 9th, 2005 at 11:34 amShe did more–she went inside the structures and photographed empty spaces. To the DDA, “full” means “paid for” not “occupied by a car.” Those structures could do a lot more for the city if they were competently managed.
I agree that city parks are nice, but there are major differences between something like Central Park and parks and “green spaces” the way they often function in cities like Ann Arbor. Central park is just that — central: A large swath of open space surrounded by very densely-packed neighborhoods. Because it is just one park, and in the center of the city, it does not serve to break up neighborhoods — neighborhoods ring the entire park on all sides. Thus, it does not interfere with the fabric of the urban environment around it. In contrast, small parks scattered about make a city actually less walkable and often serve as psychological and physical barriers that are undesirable.
posted by Anna on March 9th, 2005 at 12:12 pm“Like NYC with its Central Park. Urban density must be balanced with open space to be livable.”
Absolutely. Thanks for making my point for me. If you look at the density by the square mile of NYC (or if you have ever been there) you will see that Ann Arbor has NO WHERE NEAR THE SAME DENSITY. Based on that, if you want to have a park downtown, relative to NYC’s central park, Liberty Plaza should be made smaller, and any discussion of this ‘greenway’ should be ended now.
And as for the parking structures, do you work for an airline? Are you advocating overbooking parking structures? Do you have some secret to parking downtown that none of us know about?
posted by Ryan on March 9th, 2005 at 12:22 pmI have never understood why people complain about parking in Ann Arbor. Have you ever had to pay for parking in a real city? Ann Arbor parking is something I RAVE about to my friends in Chicago - who have to spend upwards of 20 bucks for a 3 hours parking in the city. I have never had a problem finding a spot at a garage or on the streets. Is it because people from small towns in Michigan just expect free easy parking EVERYWHERE? Then move to Troy - there is enough disgusting strip mall parking out there. Or get off your ass and walk or take the bus instead of drive.
posted by DM on March 9th, 2005 at 12:49 pmHere’s my take on downtown parking. The vast majority of garage space is devoted to monthly permit parking. That’s commuters. That’s cars driving in to town at 8:00am, sitting all day, and driving out of town at 5:00pm. Whether the drivers of these cars support the downtown economy except by their parking pass is debatable. Judging by the traffic on Main Street on Friday afternoons heading for US-23, I’d guess not.
The DDA is selling its proposal for an additional structure by raising the flags of downtown residential density and affordable housing. They also pander to the merchants’ fears of losing their customer base. I question these equations.
Merchants are aware that their customers who drive into downtown want to park in surface lots near their destinations, and these people have the most discretion over where they will go.
Downtown employees, however, could logically be induced to park at outlying commuter lots, leaving core downtown parking available for those who really need it–customers of Main Street businesses and future residents of downtown. The DDA has not, to my knowlege, even considered this alternative for future parking needs.
At the same time, the DDA’s Downtown Benchmarks show that the ridership of the Link soared in September 2004, one year after its introduction,
but after the program was slated for abandonment.
The Greenway group and the Old West Siders support the increased density of Ashley Mews, Liberty Lofts, and the plans for the Washington and Ashley redevelopments. All these projects would make the west end of downtown much denser, and all to the good. It’s the mindless fixation on the parking, and the refusal to re-examine how we use what we have, that is so unimaginative.
Could it be that the revenues the DDA gains from the garages have something to do with it? Maybe it’s convenient that there is no data on parking usage.
posted by Sophie on March 9th, 2005 at 12:56 pmI don’t mind paying for it, I just wish it was available. In chicago you can take the el or a cab to and from where ever you need to go. And there are generally sidewalks. Try walking over the i94 overpass on aa/saline, crossing carpenter or jackson/huron w of 7th. In ann arbor, I need to drive.
If we create large parks in the middle of ann arbor, and greenbelts around it, where the hell do we put the town????
For my own sanity, someone please clue me in on the following:
Is there something in the water around here that makes people think you can apply NYC/Chicago practices to Ann Arbor as it exists now? I don’t understand how anyone can sincerely make these comparisons. I’m not trying to be antagonistic. In all seriousness I’m curious to hear how that perspective works. Please email me if you have some insight.
posted by Ryan on March 9th, 2005 at 1:00 pmIn response to Sophie,
Those lots are mostly full/full most nights and every weekend with people shopping and going out downtown. If you haven’t seen the cars stacked up in the private lots with people risking getting towed every Fri/Sat I invite you to wander around some time.
The commuter reasoning, and it’s similar to that of most greenway proponents, sounds to me like people who live in the area and would rather have a park than a parking garage. Employees parking downtown isn’t the point of this issue, though your making those waiting on you secondary to your needs is rather revealing.
posted by Ryan on March 9th, 2005 at 1:12 pmBut Ryan - After 6 all of the UM lots are open and free, and all day Sundays, too. There is a 7 level lot on Thompson that I park in when I have my car and need to go into downtown - I’ve never had to go higher than level 2. And there is another lot by the lovely Frieze. And it is a short 5 minute walk to anywhere downtown. During the day, parking can be a bitch, and if you need to be in a paid lot all day, then it will cost 8 or 9 bucks. But then why not just live in Ann Arbor, in walking distance? When I moved here I decided that the cost of living near downtown was about the same as living in the outskirts and buying a blue pass. I mean, maybe if you have kids and such that limits you, but it seems like there are a lot of places near downtown where one can live relatively cheaply. But I could be mistaken on the issue. In reality, I don’t know why people go downtown anyway - there really isn’t anything there worth going to.
posted by DM on March 9th, 2005 at 1:14 pmMurph, egarding the underpasses, The trails in Boulder that parallel all of their creeks have ‘em, so I know it can be done. But that’s a minor (and not cheap) point.
posted by Brandon on March 9th, 2005 at 1:19 pmGood point about the Thompson lot. I never thought to park in that one for going downtown Shopping, going to restaurants, travelling with kids: When you do that, you can’t haul your kids/loot from 5 stores the 8 blocks to thompson, particularly in the winter. “it seems like there are a lot of places near downtown where one can live relatively cheaply.” Cheap? We were talking about $500k lofts and condos. Or are we talking student housing near downtown? I think we’re talking about separate groups of people here.
posted by Ryan on March 9th, 2005 at 1:25 pmeven the student housing isn’t cheap. there is no reason on earth that an efficiency in a small town in the midwest should cost over $600, not to speak of a one-bedroom.
posted by Joy on March 9th, 2005 at 1:28 pmMy place is small but it’s (relatively) inexpensive for its location on Third near William. So I think it’s possible to find something, and I agree (for once) with Doc Mandrake about the economics of living near downtown vs. living in the outer suburbia type areas. And anyway, if you’re going to live in Ann Arbor, you might as well live near downtown, which seems to be where most of the town’s distinctiveness (whether you hate or like it) is. Living in Ann Arbor’s boring-ass Applebee’s Zone is the same as living in the Applebee’s Zone of anywhere else, only perhaps a bit more expensive.
And I can walk to Leopold Brothers, Griz, and ABC, so what’s not to like?
posted by Dave on March 9th, 2005 at 1:32 pmThe only thing not to like is the food and beer at ABC, but that’s personal preference. I’m a huge fan of the other two and think if we do things right there can be more good places, and better access to them.
I support constructive bitching. (How’s that for an AAIO motto?)
posted by Ryan on March 9th, 2005 at 1:44 pmCertainly, apartments are very expensive near downtown relative to most of the rest of the country, and certainly compared to the other midwestern college towns. The outskirts don’t seem to me to be much better.
Sure, if you have kids it’s a pain in the ass to haul them from Thompson to Main. I have avoided that problem by not having kids, and never shopping downtown. After all, I’d rather avoid that creepy new age bookstore.
Leopolds, though the owner is nice, has probably the worst beer I’ve ever tasted, and I used to pound back Old Style in college for god’s sake. I like the idea of the organic brewery and the space is nice - gotta love those lights - but the beer stinks. The beer at the other two is much tastier, although the atmosphere at both breweries ranks near that of Denny’s, in my humble opinion.
posted by Mandrake on March 9th, 2005 at 2:09 pm“The DDA is selling its proposal for an additional structure by raising the flags of downtown residential density and affordable housing. They also pander to the merchants’ fears of losing their customer base. I question these equations.”
Sophie, you cannot have a successful business without having your customer base have the PERCEPTION that you have parking that can be reached comfortably. People think that parking is difficult, so they go elsewhere…TGI friday’s, Applebee’s, etc as restaurant examples.
Example: Metzger’s closing down (moving) after having the nearby parking structure close down. Could their customers walk from other lots, or park on a side street? Yes, as Mandrake pointed out, parking in town isn’t that difficult. While I do not own a car, and rarely use one, I have never had difficulty finding a spot even on football saturdays. But I like walking. The Metzger’s customers obviously didn’t, and as a result their sales plummeted, and they moved out of town.
Businesses are 100% reliant on parking. No parking, no business. We’d all like to think that our customers walk to our places of business, but that’s wishful thinking….and this is coming from someone who doesn’t depend on parking garages for his business. We are lucky in that many walk here, and many bike here, but we are an exception rather that a rule…
posted by todd on March 9th, 2005 at 2:18 pmI don’t mean to turn this blog into a marketplace but perhaps we can consider this a public service announcement. There is a relatively inexpensive (in the Ann Arbor housing market) studio apartment available in the building I live in on the OWS. It is near downtown at Fourth St. and W. Liberty. If anyone is interested in renting it, email me and I can put you in touch with the landlord. The landlord is one of the best I have encountered in the almost nine years I have lived here and this apartment is definitely one of the cheapest I have found. Or since parking is available as part of the rent you could just rent the place for the parking space and not worry about having to find a place to park downtown.
posted by Eric on March 9th, 2005 at 2:43 pmTodd, I think you are right - perception of lack of parking (regardless of the actuality) is key. As a long-time townie, I never have trouble parking, but people who don’t come downtown much definitely seem to. Better signage would help, and I also think it is important that people who do know where some of the good ‘hidden’ spots are tell others who might not. (Hm… then I might not have such an easy time parking, though…)
Related to your previous post, the ‘canary in the goldmine’ who told the city about the local business problems knows lots of people in the city, and they are well aware of local business problems. From conversations I’ve had, I think a lot of the problem is that city officials feel like there is nothing they can do. I’d really like to see a taskforce or some other group that gave some concrete recommendations on how the city could better support small/locally-owned businesses. I know I can think of a number of options offhand that are doable, and I know there are many others with some great experience and knowledge about both Ann Arbor’s situation and what has worked in other cities.
posted by Lisa on March 9th, 2005 at 2:54 pmLeopolds’ beer may not be my favorite, but they make some damn fine gin and vodka (cheers, Todd). As for ABC, I like their IPA, and darts and table shuffleboard can be good “goes with beer” activities.
posted by Dave on March 9th, 2005 at 2:58 pmMandrake,
There’s no accounting for taste, I suppose, but I think and most people I know think that Leopold’s brews the best stuff in town. And I thought that long before I ever met Todd. You’re right, though, that it’s a great space.
posted by tom on March 9th, 2005 at 3:05 pm“From conversations I’ve had, I think a lot of the problem is that city officials feel like there is nothing they can do. I’d really like to see a taskforce or some other group that gave some concrete recommendations on how the city could better support small/locally-owned businesses.”
IMHO it’s too late. The prices for rent and local taxes are never going to go down. If you recall the recent article about the new project downtown listed rent at around $35 per square foot. I can’t think of many locally run businesses that could survive for long at that price without an awful lot capital. $35 per square foot would put an terrible amount of pressure on a small business owner. I know I wouldn’t try and open a bar at that price. But that’s just me. I will say that small business is quite viable outside of the downtown/campus area however….
Some may not agree with me, but I honestly believe that Ann Arbor had its chance to push for density in the 80’s and 90’s, and it chose instead to make it nearly impossible to build downtown. They chose instead to view developers and their projects as villans (a natural reaction I suppose), and many still do. That’s their right, and I guess that I just disagree with them.
IMHO, the downtown area should be bracing for the inevitable construction of a Regionally sized Mega-Mall somewhere in Washtenaw County. If we fail to plan for this (Boulder didn’t, and they are still paying the price), then downtown is completely screwed. Density can still happen, but at this point the residencies will cater to the very wealthy, and the new businesses will most assuredly be chains. Sad.
(end broken record)
posted by todd on March 9th, 2005 at 3:38 pmJust to confirm some peoples points:
I work for a small company downtown. IF WE DID NOT HAVE OUR OWN PARKING SPACES NEAR OUR LOCATION WE WOULD NEVER HAVE LOCATED DOWNTOWN. Most of our employees commute from outside the downtown area (I don’t), and I would say greater than a third of our employees eat lunch at a local restaurant every day. How many restaurants do you think would survive without their lunch crowd? And if you take away the restaurants downtown, how many other businesses will survive.
Just because YOU think people should park their car 5 blocks away from work and walk from there doesn’t mean that they will.
posted by James on March 9th, 2005 at 4:28 pmI also think that people are misled when the greenway is described as being “along” Allen Creek. It would actually be above the pipe containing Allen Creek.
Thus, there would be nothing scenic about this greenway. It’s only purpose is clearly to obstruct further development, not to create a scenic park.
Also, if people think there needs to be a bike path in that location, may I ask why? Are the streets of the OWS too busy to risk biking?
posted by James on March 9th, 2005 at 4:36 pmDM - “Is it because people from small towns in Michigan just expect free easy parking EVERYWHERE?”
Yep. And not just small towns in Michigan. Small towns everywhere and towns and cities of all sizes south of the Mason-Dixon, from what I can tell. Oh, and Detroit. And the fringes of real cities. So, the large majority of Americans.
It’s kind of a wicked problem, really. If people have to drive *somewhere* (e.g. the grocery store), then they will own a car. If they own a car, they will expect to drive it everywhere and park it - cheaply, at worst - everywhere. Having a car - and driving it everywhere - (and several pages of discussion of federal and local government policies that I’ll spare you) will lead them to live in a place where they are even more likely to need to drive places, making them more likely to own a second car, to buy their kids cars, etc, etc, viscious circle, viscious circle, Canton Twp.
If it weren’t for the UM capturing a huge portion of the local job market in Ann Arbor, there would be no Ann Arbor, and Washtenaw County would look a lot like Livingston County - just another part of the ever-expanding and characterless blemish on the face of the earth that is suburban Detroit.
So, much as some of us would like to, restricting parking supply is something that has to be done very delicately, because people can very easily be pushed away.
posted by Murph on March 9th, 2005 at 4:58 pmSpeaking of cheap Central Ann Arbor rents, we’ll have 3 rooms available for Fall ($270-$450) in a historic home with a front porch and hardwood floors on the Old West Side near Main and Madison… easy pedestrian (Downtown, Central campus) and transit (North Campus, points outlying) access to everywhere. Now accepting applications.
posted by Brandon on March 9th, 2005 at 5:34 pm“Leopolds, though the owner is nice, has probably the worst beer I’ve ever tasted, and I used to pound back Old Style in college for god’s sake. I like the idea of the organic brewery and the space is nice - gotta love those lights - but the beer stinks. ”
I suppose that I should respond to this. The beer I make is German Kellerbier…that is, I use a unique strain that produces some interesting flavors (well, I think that they are interesting) and yields a sour finish. It is also unfiltered. It is not for everyone, and I recognize this. Many people feel the same way about Belgian beers…it takes getting used to.
I will say that I just added two conventional beers: a Porter and a Pale Ale. Both use conventional yeasts, to they both taste like the microbrews that you have probably had elsewhere.
…..and both are about as challenging and as fun to make as a bowl of cereal, but it keeps people happy.
I do appreciate your criticism Dr. Mandrake, believe it or not.
Sorry for the commercial related post AAIO.
posted by todd on March 9th, 2005 at 5:58 pmLooks like Easthope is trying to unseat the Mayor for Chief
posted by KBlow on March 9th, 2005 at 6:19 pmEco-Weenie status according to the AA News. Must feel good to raise your constituents property values at the expense of the health of downtown and the rest of the city. Thanks a lot Chris.
Todd - well, this german style must be an acquired taste. Not so with the vodka and gin - I love them. Tonight after all is 5 dollar martini night - I’ll be there. DM
posted by Anonymous on March 9th, 2005 at 6:25 pmTodd — I consider myself fairly well versed in all things beer, but I have never heard of kellerbier before. Can you recommend any german kellerbiers that are available in A2 to try? Honestly, I always thought the sourness of your beers was due to an off-flavor or an unwanted product of your system. Do you use the same strain of yeast in your hefeweissen or do you use a weiss yeast? Just curious.
I really think the beer at all 3 ann arbor breweries have a lot of room for improvement, but your place and ABC can both be a lot of fun to hang out at.
posted by James on March 9th, 2005 at 6:28 pmI think Leopold’s gin and tonics are the best around.
posted by Brandon on March 9th, 2005 at 6:47 pmI think the Snapper SB and the Huxell at ABC are well worth a try.
posted by Nick on March 9th, 2005 at 7:05 pmCan’t beat the Sacred Cow IPA at ABC… plus Rene Gref has been a quality DDA member, so it makes it taste even better
posted by KBlow on March 9th, 2005 at 9:19 pmTodd — in case you care, I bought the St. Georgen Kellerbier (or something like that) at Bella Vino tonight and just finished it off. It was hoppier than most German beers, but not especially sour. Great beer though, I’m glad you made me aware of this style. Anyway, I don’t know what I’m actually getting at.
I concur that Matt and Rene from ABC are great people. The Leopold’s have been real friendly the couple of times I’ve talked to them. I can’t remember if Todd is the one with the goatee or the tall skinny guy though…
posted by James on March 9th, 2005 at 9:34 pmJames…that isn’t really kellerbier. Kellerbier (which means from the cellar, loosely) refers more to a process than an actual style in that the flavors are unique to a particular brewery. In other words, the beers will have a specific “house” flavor that comes from the fact that the beers are unfiltered, and the fact that the brewers tend to reuse a lager strain again and again, which leads to the mutation of the yeast, which in turn leads to unique flavors.
These beers are only served in the tiniest of breweries in Germany, and are only available in draught form. Many Germans, in fact, have never had this type of beer. It is disappearing from the German landscape as consolidation and a dwindling beer drinking public has pushed both the brewers and the customers toward more “neutral” beers like Paulaner or Erdinger where the flavors and bitterness have been severely reduced over the past 40 years. I can assure you that, long ago, Miller and even Budweiser made Kellerbier. Obviously, that train left that station forever and a half ago….
A few of the AA Homebrewers didn’t know what I was talking about either until one of them went to Germany on business, and visited a tiny brewery that served kellerbier. He reported back that it had the same characteristics that my beer had: sulphury, tart, lightly carbonated, and served cool rather than cold. IMHO, no one makes beer like this in the US, and I am quite proud of what I serve, although not every batch I make is perfect.
Speaking of unique beers, you’d be well served to try Arbor Brewing Company’s Belgian line of beer. These beers are quite difficult to make, and require a monsterous amount of time and labor on the part of Doug and Matt. The Greffs are complete rockstars, if you ask me….the simple fact that Rene is backing some of these DDA proposals tells me that everyone should listen very hard to what she is saying.
I appreciate the comments about the gin and vodka. For those of you who get out to NYC, you’ll be pleased to know that our first shipment of spirits leaves for Manhattan this coming June (when all the fun paperwork and licensing is done)….we will be served at Grammercy Tavern, Tavern on the Green, and 21, just to name a few well known eateries.
Thank you for your input, but I think that AAIO has had enough of this thread.
posted by todd on March 10th, 2005 at 9:47 amThanks for the reply Todd. Interesting stuff.
posted by James on March 10th, 2005 at 10:51 amWow, congrats, Todd on the NY market break-in! I hope that it makes it up to my neck of the woods after taking NYC by storm.
posted by Anna on March 10th, 2005 at 11:32 amOK, I pinky swear that this is the last post.
Anna…My father is actually good friends with the Head Fred at the Chamber of Commerce for the home town of the University that you work for. We are planning on having stuff out there by winter.
posted by todd on March 10th, 2005 at 11:39 amGood on ya, Todd. Selling any of those spirits at other regional locations?
posted by js on March 10th, 2005 at 11:48 am(I’d like to talk to you about an article sometime…)
As far as beer goes, I think the wisest advice that I’ve recieved was “Drink what you like.” I don’t happen to like the Pils or Hefe at Leopold’s, but I love the Red and the Schwartz. It’s rare that I like a Belgian, because they’re usually too sweet (on occassion, one will surprise me). And I tend to like ales more than lagers. But instead of saying that Leopold’s makes bad beer, I say that I don’t like some of the beer there.
I need to get into Grizzly Peak again though, because I’ve heard that they’ve dramatically improved since the last time I was in there.
Anybody up for a beer? Mandrake? (It’ll have to wait until I’m done with this damn head cold though…)
Excellent; I’ll keep an eye out and tell my friends to drink it — come out and promote it!
posted by Anna on March 10th, 2005 at 11:59 amI’m always up for a beer, JS. And I agree - I do not like the Hefe but I can take the golden or red.
Likewise, I’ll tell my NY friends to try it. You should sell it in Philly - I know when I move there I’ll be bringing a couple of bottles. But I don’t want to have to come back to AA to get more when it runs out!
posted by DM on March 10th, 2005 at 12:45 pmDM, Did they hire you to take Gil-White’s job?
posted by Anna on March 10th, 2005 at 1:28 pmGil-White’s an idiot. He’s being fired precisely because he is such an amazing stupid, ridiculous, schizophrenic human being. Everyone I know thinks he’s a total whack job. It says a lot about the department and university that hired him in the first place. I would never take a job at an Ivy League school - they treat you like an academic whore. No - I will not be working at any university in Philadelphia - I am going there simply to start a new life as an upbeat, positive, friendly, supportive human being who only has nice things to say about the world.
posted by Anonymous on March 10th, 2005 at 1:51 pmI agree wholeheartedly with all three sentiments (DM, I presume).
posted by Anna on March 10th, 2005 at 2:01 pmI went to Grizzly Peak one time and it weirded me out. Felt less like a pub and more like a yupscale restaurant.
posted by Brandon on March 11th, 2005 at 1:14 pmGriz is definitely more yupscale, which is why I hang mostly at Arbor. Seems to attract far fewer trendoids.
posted by Dave on March 11th, 2005 at 2:19 pmThe food is excellent at the Griz though, if you like great food. The beer, however, is much better at ABC (and the hanging out, if that’s what you’re looking for).
posted by Anonymous on March 11th, 2005 at 2:31 pmTotal agreement with ” “. I’ve been to Grizzly Peak a few times, mostly to chat with an old ex-co-worker of mine who works there as a server, and I always felt out of place (even more so than I do most of the time in this town). DEFINITELY yupscale. When I go to some place like Old Town or even Ashley’s, it may have its drawbacks, but I don’t feel like everybody’s staring at me in a bad way. I even enjoyed the Del Rio, even with its appalling service. The beer also seems a little pricey. They do good burgers, though.
posted by Lazaro on March 11th, 2005 at 4:07 pmI’ve been retreating to the Old Town, but I’m bummed that they’re getting overcrowded now… I liked ‘em better when I was only there to give the Del a night off… (It’s also one of the few places that’s not super smokey, and when I have a cold that matters a lot…)
posted by js on March 14th, 2005 at 3:48 am